[Interview] When digital and physical worlds meet

JStories ー The Expo 2025 Osaka, Kansai (also known as 2025 Japan World Expo) is now underway, spotlighting the theme "Designing Future Society for Our Lives." Among the must-see attractions are eight “Signature Pavilions” that bring this theme to life.  One of these is null² , which stands out because of its unique mirrored design. With the theme “Forging Lives”, the exhibit offers visitors a one-of-a-kind experience: interacting with their digital selves — a feature that has been drawing widespread attention and popularity among both domestic and international visitors.

What exactly is this interactive encounter that can only be experienced inside the pavilion? What does it mean to meet a future version of yourself? And what vision of the future does the pavilion convey? We spoke with media artist Yoichi Ochiai, who produced the pavilion, to find out.

Pavilion Producer, Media Artist

Born in 1987, Ochiai began his artistic work around 2010. His work explores materialization, transformation, and the aesthetics of mass in liminal fields. He is an associate professor at the University of Tsukuba and serves as one of the producers of the Expo 2025 Signature Projects. His recent exhibitions include "Cherish, your imagination" (Museum of Contemporary Art Tokyo, 2020), "Ars Electronica" (Austria, 2021), "Sometimes Sunny, Sometimes Leica" (Leica Gallery Tokyo/Kyoto, 2023), and "Resonance of Null: Interconnected Emptiness in Digital Nature" (Museum of Light, Yamanashi, 2023).

JStories Executive Editor Toshi Maeda (hereafter, JStories): Mr. Ochiai, you are producing null² , one of the Signature Pavilions at Expo 2025 Osaka, Kansai, which opened this April. First, for visitors who are considering going, can you tell us what the main feature of the pavilion is?

Yoichi Ochiai (hereafter, Ochiai): The concept began with the idea of building a “mirror pavilion,” so its exterior is entirely made of mirrors. But not just any mirrors: these are uniquely deformed, reflective surfaces you’ve likely never seen before. Inside, it’s a mirrored room that hosts interactive experiences with a digital human. It’s a pavilion where visitors engage in dialogue with a digital representation of the human body.

JStories: What is the core concept behind the pavilion?

Ochiai: The concept centers on two kinds of mirrors. The exterior is a large, deforming mirror, while the interior features a digitally infinite, reflective mirror. I think it’s a very Expo-like building. What’s exciting about world expos is that they allow the creation of temporary structures. It’s something closer to an art museum that enables expressions not possible elsewhere. We’ve used materials that aren’t typically allowed in buildings, and we’ve incorporated visual and digital performances that can only be seen here. It’s a visually compelling experience.

JStories: The pavilion features a digital human named “Mirrored Body” that acts as a kind of digital reflection of yourself. How does that compare with similar initiatives overseas? Are there comparable examples abroad?

Ochiai: Since I became the producer for the Expo and started shaping the concept in 2021, we’ve prepared the digital human Mirrored Body. Even back then, we predicted that by 2025, large language models (LLMs) and generative AI would have advanced significantly, and that appearance scanning would be feasible. We envisioned a future where individuals could possess their own data and AI-based “digital mirror,” enabling people to talk to a second version of themselves based on their personal information. Technology has progressed just as we imagined, and now in 2025, that vision has become a reality.

JStories: I see. You were already envisioning this future nearly five years ago!

Ochiai: The concept was not only to showcase this on the grand stage of a World Expo that attracts people from around the globe, but also to create an exhibit that also critically engages with the major issues humanity faces today.

JStories: With AI evolving, the idea of a digital double is starting to feel much more real.

Ochiai: Digital humans as a field have been studied for a long time. Even at Expo 2005 Aichi, there were exhibits that scanned human faces and turned them into 3D models. Companies like NVIDIA and Meta (Facebook) have also been working on creating digital human representations. What makes our Mirrored Body distinct is that we identified and integrated foundational technologies like LLMs and 3D Earth visualization before they became mainstream. Plus, we made it all operable via a smartphone. From scanning your face to interacting with the avatar, the entire experience is mobile-based and without the need for special hardware. That’s one of the most innovative parts of the project.

JStories: For people who plan to visit the Expo, how can they create their own Mirrored Body and experience it at your pavilion?

Ochiai: Once you reserve a spot at the pavilion, you’ll receive an email with two app links, one for scanning your appearance and another for interaction. After downloading the apps, you can scan your face and register your voice. Your Mirrored Body will then be able to speak in your voice. You can even input knowledge, allowing your Mirrored Body to hold conversations with you or with other people's mirrored bodies.

JStories: I see. So you can create your Mirrored Body before arriving at the venue?

Ochiai: Yes, if you complete the setup beforehand, your Mirrored Body can appear in the theater at the pavilion and be featured in various performances. Beyond the Expo experience, it also lets people imagine a future where, even after you’ve passed away, your Mirrored Body, powered by your data and AI, will continue to speak like you. We want visitors to think “Wow, so this is what the future could look like!”

JStories: The demand for your pavilion seems extremely high. It’s said to be very popular. 

Ochiai: Yes, thankfully it’s very popular. We’ve heard from many that reservations are hard to come by.

JStories: What kind of feedback have you received from visitors who’ve experienced the Mirrored Body?

Ochiai: We’ve been fortunate to receive very positive feedback. Having a digital version of yourself appear on-screen and reply to you can make you ask: “What really is the self?” The pavilion intentionally strips away symbols and language to get at the essence. When you see and hear your AI-powered self on the other side of a digital interface, you start to wonder”Am I just a fragile bundle of symbols? Even if it seems like I’m thinking independently, could AI just take my place?” These are the kinds of questions people walk away with.

JStories: How do you interact with your own Mirrored Body?

Ochiai: Sometimes I talk to it myself, or I watch it interact with friends. What’s interesting is that sometimes it repeats things I’ve said before, and other times it generates things I’ve never said, but still sounds like me. From the listener’s perspective, there’s no way to tell which is which. That’s the future I see, where it won’t really matter whether a statement comes directly from the person or their Mirrored Body, and both will be accepted as equally valid.

JStories: Do you think we’re on the verge of an era where everyone will have a digital human?

Ochiai: Technically, we’ve already reached that point.

JStories: Your pavilion certainly makes that clear. In a world where the line between human and digital doubles is fading, you also raise philosophical questions. The name null²  means “zero” or “nothing,” and it seems to ask whether humans can live without doing anything in a world where AI handles everything. What is your vision for humanity in a world defined by “nothingness”? What do you think remains for us, or what should we focus on?

Ochiai: There’s a concept called “Moravec’s Paradox,” which says that what’s easy for humans is hard for machines, and vice versa. For example, reasoning, memory, and language are hard for humans but increasingly easy for computers. Meanwhile, things like eating, exercising, and sweating are second nature to humans but incredibly difficult for AI. I’ve never seen a sweating AI or a computer that eats.

JStories: That’s very true. Ironically, those kinds of things are actually difficult for AI to do.

Ochiai: Even if AI can’t do them now, I think it eventually will — but probably not easily. Things we take for granted are often the most challenging for AI. So I believe that what will define us as humans is doing what AI cannot. Intelligence is just a small bonus of being human — that is one of the messages of the pavilion.

JStories: That makes sense. When you put it that way, intelligence alone doesn’t fully capture what it means to be human.

Ochiai: Humans have only been “thinking” for the last 20,000 or 30,000 years. Activities like creating, reasoning, and doing math or science are relatively new. Writing history with language started just over 10,000 years ago. That’s a tiny slice of time in the 2.5 million years since humans emerged from the forest, and an even smaller blip in the timeline of life itself. So perhaps the reasoning and computation skills that AI excels at were never that important to being human to begin with. That’s one of the questions I want people to consider.

JStories: That’s an eye-opening thought, that the areas AI excels in might not be so essential to humanity.

Ochiai: Right. For example, with financial planning, if your personal data is registered, AI could easily handle it. The same goes for booking a restaurant tonight, renewing your driver’s license — AI could do all of that for you. If your genetic tendencies are known, even preventive care could be left to AI. So then what happens to the concept of the "self"? From the perspective of modern Western science, the answer is essentially “nothing.” There’s almost nothing left that you have to do on your own.

But in reality, life goes on. We eat meals, we chat with friends. Whether or not something tangible comes from those moments doesn’t matter. We stop needing to evaluate life by what is or isn’t produced. I want visitors to the pavilion to experience that moment, the next step beyond the modern human ideal.

JStories: It's true that we can’t know exactly what will come out of this, but there’s a line of thinking that digital humans like these could serve as a catalyst for promoting Japan’s digital transformation, revitalization, or even future economic growth. What are your thoughts on that perspective?

Ochiai: In my mind, I envision a future that’s entirely different from the traditional industrial model. What I mean is this: in the future, it won’t be humans but AI that drives the advancement of science and technology. I believe AI will be the one conducting experiments, writing research papers, coding programs, and using reasoning. These will no longer be tasks for humans.

And when it comes to building AI models that are competitive on a global scale, AI itself will likely be developing them. Since every country will be creating its own AI, I think Japan should focus on exporting what makes it uniquely Japanese, like automobiles, semiconductor manufacturing equipment, passive components, and culture. There are plenty of countries better suited to play the capital investment game, where you pour in capital and aim for financial return. So I think it’s fine to let those countries take on that role.

JStories: That’s a very encouraging perspective. Finally, if there’s one message or idea you’d like visitors to take away from experiencing your null² pavilion, what would it be?

Ochiai: I’m Yoichi Ochiai, producer of one of the Signature Pavilions at Expo 2025 Osaka, Kansai. We are creating a pavilion based on the concept of the “dual nature of mirrors.” One aspect is a physical mirror — a massive, transformable sculpture that reflects and reshapes the surrounding landscape. Using robotics and new materials, it creates a dynamic environment that transforms the sky and scenery itself. Inside the pavilion, there’s a mirror room where the presence of digital beings is seamlessly connected to the physical space. This offers an experience that brings together cutting-edge mirror technology with high contrast and precision, something that can only be fully appreciated in person. The sculpture itself is highly flexible in form and, ideally, a truly magnificent piece of work.

We invite you to come, touch, and experience it for yourself at our pavilion.

Translated by Anita De Michele | JStories

Edited by Desiderio Luna, Moritz Brinkhoff, Randy Wagenheim | JStories

Top photo: Courtesy of ©2024 Sustainable Pavilion 2025 Inc. All Rights Reserved

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Click here for the Japanese version of the article